Grounding Shielding

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Grounding Shielding

sailplane
I an finding that grounded shielding during the night is really bad and I can barely sleep.  I've had it grounded for a week or so and had bad sleep, thinking it's something else.
I ungrounded it last night in the middle of the night and got half a night of good sleep.

How could grounding be worse.. do I need a diode for ground? Anybody else had problems like this?

I have no E fields I needed to dissipate in that room anyway at night, everything is off at the panel, so grounding was not really required at night, just during the day.
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Re: Grounding Shielding

Fog Top

My guess is that you've connected to earth carrying a magnetic field from the area-wide electric system.  I have a body voltage meter and one of those grounding (Earthing) pads.  I grounded to earth where the magnetic field was .05 mg, which supposedly is low for civilization, and it greatly increased body voltage when feet were on the pad.  Then I connected to the neutral plug on the electric outlet and could get the body voltage meter (BMV) to zeros using the pad.  That is until everything changed when I became more EMF affected.  Rechecked BMV and sure enough when I put my feet on the grounding pad the BMV skyrocketed.  I think it's another potentially harmful gimmick to waste your hard earned $$ on.


From: sailplane [via ES] <ml+[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 2:31 PM
To: Fog Top
Subject: [ES] Grounding Shielding
 
I an finding that grounded shielding during the night is really bad and I can barely sleep.  I've had it grounded for a week or so and had bad sleep, thinking it's something else.
I ungrounded it last night in the middle of the night and got half a night of good sleep.

How could grounding be worse.. do I need a diode for ground? Anybody else had problems like this?

I have no E fields I needed to dissipate in that room anyway at night, everything is off at the panel, so grounding was not really required at night, just during the day.


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Re: Grounding Shielding

sailplane
This post was updated on .
Fog Top wrote
My guess is that you've connected to earth carrying a magnetic field from the area-wide electric system.  
I measured magnetic.. It doesn't increase when I ground it.

But I did just find unusual magnetic fields in my basement where the panel ground hooks up to the water pipe.
The grounding wire has 10mG on it, .. is this normal?
It seems to give off some magnetism into the water line, but once it goes through the water meter it reduces a lot.
I also tried turning off the Main power, and surprisingly the magnetic field got even higher!.. Like double or tripe.

Why would turning off the power to the entire house raise the magnetic field?  Also, I keep a lot of breakers off when I don't need them, and turning more on seemed to reduce the magnetic field, but only by 0.1mG.

I don't have any experience with magnetic fields,.. What causes them in the first place?.. There is no E field on that ground wire.

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Re: Grounding Shielding

sailplane
This was the second night, and full night since I removed the ground from the shielding and I was finally able to sleep properly.. I am behind on sleep a lot now.

So, I am unsure what is wrong with grounding to metal ductwork, but I suspect electrical ground is also just as bad.  I am turning off almost all breakers at night, and still that ground was no good.  I definitely have something strange coming up the ground wire, but not sure how to measure what is might be.

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Re: Grounding Shielding

Marc Martin
Administrator
Yes, people have complained that even grounding to an outside stake is no good, either because the ground itself is contaminated, or because grounding yourself makes your body a path to the ground, which means that frequencies are attracted to (on their path to the ground), that otherwise never would be attracted to you.

I only briefly tried grounding, found that it made things worse, and moved on.

Some people only "ground" by taking off their shoes at the beach or a park.

Marc

 
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Re: Grounding Shielding

Fog Top
In reply to this post by sailplane

Does your water enter the house on metal pipes?  It comes in, goes through a water meter, and then does it exit onto PVC or metal pipes?  Magnetic fields are created whenever current flows through wiring, by running motors, wiring errors which estimates say over 90% of homes have - my house had many and the magnetic field went to 6 mG every time a light was turned on, power lines, and from the electric utility using earth for a neutral instead of beefing up their own neutral wires to return the electric signal back to the substation - almost all do it regardless if there are laws against it.  There are probably other things which create magnetic fields, but these are what come to mind.


We had a high magnetic field on our copper water pipes which BruceM on this list instructed us how to fix by splicing in pieces of PVC wherever water pipes entered and exited the house.  We disconnected the ground to the water pipes also.  You might consider asking Bruce about this.  He may no longer be on the list, which would be a great loss since he's an electrical engineer who is also ES.  If you can't contact him here, email me off list and I'll try and connect you.


An after thought, have you ever gone through your house room by room when nothing was turned on, done a magnetic field read and then switched on a light to see if the magnetic field rises?  http://emwatch.com/house-wiring-radiation/






From: sailplane [via ES] <ml+[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 2:57 PM
To: Fog Top
Subject: [ES] Re: Grounding Shielding
 
Fog Top wrote
My guess is that you've connected to earth carrying a magnetic field from the area-wide electric system.  
I measured magnetic.. It doesn't increase when I ground it.

But I did just find unusual magnetic fields in my basement where the panel ground hooks up to the water pipe.
The grounding wire has 10mG on it, .. is this normal?
It seems to give off some magnetism into the water line, but once it goes through the water meter it reduces a lot.
I also tried turning off the Main power, and surprisingly the magnetic field got even higher!

Why would turning off the power to the entire high raise the magnetic field?  Also, I keep a lot of breakers off when I don't need them, and turning more on seemed to reduce the magnetic field, but only by 0.1mG.

I don't have any experience with magnetic fields,.. What causes them in the first place?.. There is no E field on that ground wire.




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Re: Grounding Shielding

sailplane
This post was updated on .
It's all metal.  Metal comes in, metal throughout the home.

The electrical panel has a grounding wire that hooks to the metal copper. There is high V/M with ED88T on this wire, and high M.  So the electrical panel is grounding into the copper water pipe, and plenty of current is flowing,.. the pipe has turned greenish and the grounding connector has oxidized and rusted, .. I put a new one.  But obviously, plenty of current is flowing down into the earth through this copper pipe.

It is not flowing up towards my house though, the pipes upstairs do not have magnetic fields, so I don't know if I should be worried about it.
I have a water softener with water pipes that stops the current(like you say), but, I also put a jumper wire across, and with jumper/without, still no M fields upstairs.
I have gas pipes as well which are connected to the water lines, to ground them.  If I don't have a jumper across the softener, then I'm not sure if it's ok to have the gas lines not grounded to the same place as the electrical panel..  
Also, I have a furnace that I think is grounded to the electrical ground inside it, and the furnace ductwork touches the water pipes... So I think no matter what I do, things will always be touching the electrical ground.. But my shielding can at least be away from it.

I am mostly looking for what to do with my shielding foil.. if I leave it un grounded, I get high V/M, is it ok to leave it like that then if connecting to ground makes it worse?..

Maybe there's something else that absorbs electrons other than ground that I could use =)?

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Re: Grounding Shielding

Fog Top

Sailplane wrote:

plenty of current is flowing down into the earth through this copper pipe.

If you live in civilization, the earth is carrying a magnetic field from our outdated Wye electrical distribution system.  Because of it's poor design, earth around your home is going to be carrying this field with some homes being in a better spot than others.

The magnetic field is traveling from the earth outside your home where your metal pipes touch it and carried in onto the house metal pipes.  The PVC splice, just a small piece, near where the water pipe enters and just before it leaves the house such as outside spigots where the splices need to be placed to stop the mG from traveling on the copper.  The field entered pipes in my basement and two stories up I would get a head jolt when turning on bath water.  Even though it was a low magnetic field, I got very affected when sitting on a first floor chair which was over the pipes.  Gas pipes touching earth and entering a home can also carry high magnetic fields and should be fixed by the utility with a dielectric.  I found 25 mG on gas lines coming into a local church.  RF shielding will not block magnetic fields.  I used a gator clip plugged into the ground of an electrical outlet for my RF wall shielding foil at another house, otherwise it was a shocking experience when touching it.  I highly suggest you talk with BruceM since he's an expert on grounding issues.  Most electricians are clueless about magnetic fields being a problem, but as we ES know, they cause a world of hurt.


From: sailplane [via ES] <ml+[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 7:03 PM
To: Fog Top
Subject: [ES] Re: Grounding Shielding
 
It's all metal.  Metal comes in, metal throughout the home.

The electrical panel has a grounding wire that hooks to the metal copper. There is high V/M with ED88T on this wire, and high M.  So the electrical panel is grounding into the copper water pipe, and plenty of current is flowing,.. the pipe has turned greenish and the grounding connector has oxidized and rusted, .. I put a new one.  But obviously, plenty of current is flowing down into the earth through this copper pipe.

It is not flowing up towards my house though, the pipes upstairs do not have magnetic fields, so I don't know if I should be worried about it.
I have a water softener with water pipes that stops the current(like you say), but, I also put a jumper wire across, and with jumper/without, still no M fields upstairs.
I have gas pipes as well which are connected to the water lines, to ground them.  If I don't have a jumper across the softener, then I'm not sure if it's ok to have the gas lines not grounded to the same place as the electrical panel..  
Also, I have a furnace that I think is grounded to the electrical ground inside it, and the furnace ductwork touches the water pipes... So I think no matter what I do, things will always be touching the electrical ground.. But my shielding can at least be away from it.

I am mostly looking for what to do with my shielding foil.. if I leave it un grounded, I get high V/M, is it ok to leave it like that then if connecting to ground makes it worse?..

Maybe it's something else that absorbs electrons other than ground that I could use =)?




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Re: Grounding Shielding

sailplane
Fog Top wrote
The magnetic field is traveling from the earth outside your home where your metal pipes touch it and carried in onto the house metal pipes.  The PVC splice, just a small piece, near where the water pipe enters and just before it leaves the house such as outside spigots where the splices need to be placed to stop the mG from traveling on the copper.  
Ok, I just measured the neighborhood on bike. some places are worse, some are better like you say, even on the street. 1-2mG is the norm.  Some places have 4mG.
Turned off main, I have 0.3mG in my house with mains off completely.

Probably nothing more I can do, the pipes don't carry any magnetic field upstairs, it's all just down there, which is quite far from me.  Probably hooking up the ground to the shielding causes it to emit some low level RF,... I don't have anything sensitive enough to measure that, but this is my guess.
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Re: Grounding Shielding

sailplane
This post was updated on .
ED88T measures 250mG on the ground wire.
I found a company that says they help online, EmfServices.com but it's a bit expensive.
They also say the Neutral wire and Ground wire should not be connected to each other in the panel, but at my panel, they are connected..
I thought this is standard,.. Let's see what they say.  
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